KesheAt Omeret Lo - Revision history

Larry: rewording

2025-08-01T18:35:43Z

rewording

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:35, August 1, 2025
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	Song [https://shironet.mako.co.il/artist?type=lyrics&lang=1&prfid=7944&wrkid=17704 lyrics] and [https://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%9C%D7%90-when-you-say-no.html translation] (including fifth verse)		Song [https://shironet.mako.co.il/artist?type=lyrics&lang=1&prfid=7944&wrkid=17704 lyrics] and [https://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%9C%D7%90-when-you-say-no.html translation] (including fifth verse)

	[https://genius.com/Dean-martin-baby-its-cold-outside-lyrics Lyrics] to Frank Loesser's 1944 hit "Baby, It's Cold Outside" on the same topic, showing that this mindset is universal (however, a different take on this song is presented in [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/J44ttkYa5wo ~~this video~~])		[https://genius.com/Dean-martin-baby-its-cold-outside-lyrics Lyrics] to Frank Loesser's 1944 hit "Baby, It's Cold Outside" on the same topic, showing that this mindset is universal (however, a different take on this song is presented [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/J44ttkYa5wo here])

	Dan Almagor [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dWCl6o3z0 interviewed] (in Hebrew) on the song and on his addition of a fifth verse. (He attributes the inspiration for the original to "Reader's Digest" magazine.)		Dan Almagor [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dWCl6o3z0 interviewed] (in Hebrew) on the song and on his addition of a fifth verse. (He attributes the inspiration for the original to "Reader's Digest" magazine.)

Larry: Wet Ass Pussy

2025-08-01T18:35:00Z

Wet Ass Pussy

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:35, August 1, 2025
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	Song [https://shironet.mako.co.il/artist?type=lyrics&lang=1&prfid=7944&wrkid=17704 lyrics] and [https://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%9C%D7%90-when-you-say-no.html translation] (including fifth verse)		Song [https://shironet.mako.co.il/artist?type=lyrics&lang=1&prfid=7944&wrkid=17704 lyrics] and [https://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%9C%D7%90-when-you-say-no.html translation] (including fifth verse)

	[https://genius.com/Dean-martin-baby-its-cold-outside-lyrics Lyrics] to Frank Loesser's 1944 hit "Baby, It's Cold Outside" on the same topic, showing that this mindset is universal		[https://genius.com/Dean-martin-baby-its-cold-outside-lyrics Lyrics] to Frank Loesser's 1944 hit "Baby, It's Cold Outside" on the same topic, showing that this mindset is universal (however, a different take on this song is presented in [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/J44ttkYa5wo this video])

	Dan Almagor [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dWCl6o3z0 interviewed] (in Hebrew) on the song and on his addition of a fifth verse. (He attributes the inspiration for the original to "Reader's Digest" magazine.)		Dan Almagor [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dWCl6o3z0 interviewed] (in Hebrew) on the song and on his addition of a fifth verse. (He attributes the inspiration for the original to "Reader's Digest" magazine.)

Larry: video of Maman's dance

2025-06-17T16:50:16Z

video of Maman's dance

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:50, June 17, 2025
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	... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.		... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.

	In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied ~~definitely~~ that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to ~~demonstrate~~ that although she said "no", she might really have meant "yes". The defendants were acquitted.<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>		In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied unequivocally that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to establish that although she said "no", she might really have meant "yes". The defendants were acquitted.<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>

	Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:		Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:
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	{{AussieDance \|2272}} (Maman)		{{AussieDance \|2272}} (Maman)

			[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9dlwx7-YPU0cGIzcTNRMmZHTms/edit?resourcekey=0-bQkbUycAi8RcJncNq1wANw Video] of Maman's dance

	{{AussieDance \|3179}} (Sa'ada)		{{AussieDance \|3179}} (Sa'ada)

	[[Category:Dances]]		[[Category:Dances]]

Larry: More equal treatment of the two dances

2025-06-16T02:22:28Z

More equal treatment of the two dances

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:22, June 16, 2025
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	Hebrew: כשאת אומרת לא (When You Say "No"). Partner ~~dance~~ by [[Shlomo Maman]]~~, 1984. The ADB also reports a partner dance by~~ [[Itzik Sa'ada]] ~~in the same year~~, ~~which~~ is the only one recognized by Rokdim.		Hebrew: כשאת אומרת לא (When You Say "No"). Partner dances by [[Shlomo Maman]] and [[Itzik Sa'ada]], both from 1984. Sa'ada's dance is the only one recognized by Rokdim.

	~~The~~ dance is unremarkable.		Maman's dance is unremarkable. Video of Sa'ada's dance is unavailable.

	The song was written in 1962, far predating the dance. The music is by [[Alexander (Sasha) Argov]] and is typically complex (see discussion at [[Shir HaHaflaga]].) The lyrics are by [[Dan Almagor]], who also wrote lyrics to [[Eich Hu Shar]], [[Kol HaKavod]], and others, and who is better known for his plays and for translations of plays from English to Hebrew.		The song was written in 1962, far predating the dance. The music is by [[Alexander (Sasha) Argov]] and is typically complex (see discussion at [[Shir HaHaflaga]].) The lyrics are by [[Dan Almagor]], who also wrote lyrics to [[Eich Hu Shar]], [[Kol HaKavod]], and others, and who is better known for his plays and for translations of plays from English to Hebrew.

Larry: Hebrew of decision

2025-04-01T03:47:22Z

Hebrew of decision

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:47, April 1, 2025
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	</poem></blockquote>		</poem></blockquote>

	The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, which reversed the verdict and sentenced four of the boys to terms of fifteen to eighteen months. In his decision, Judge Mishael Cheshen brought up the song only to completely ~~reject~~ its implications:		The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, which reversed the verdict and sentenced four of the boys to terms of fifteen to eighteen months. In his decision, Judge Mishael Cheshen brought up the song only to completely repudiate its implications:
	<blockquote>Is it so? Is "no" a "maybe"? Is "no" really "come"? Is "no" a "yes", and "even more inviting than 'yes'"? ... "No" is always "No". There is no "No" which is "Yes". There is no sighted blind person, no sober drunk, no stupid wise person, no yielding stubborn person. There is no black that is white and no night that is day. "No" is "No".		<blockquote>Is it so? Is "no" a "maybe"? Is "no" really "come"? Is "no" a "yes", and "even more inviting than 'yes'"? ... "No" is always "No". There is no "No" which is "Yes". There is no sighted blind person, no sober drunk, no stupid wise person, no yielding stubborn person. There is no black that is white and no night that is day. "No" is "No".<ref>Cheshen's words read much better in the original: .'לא' הוא לעולם 'לא', ואין 'לא' שהוא 'כן'. אין עיוור פיקח ואין שיכור פיכח. אין חכם טיפש ואין ותרן עיקש, אין שחור שהוא לבן ואין לילה שהוא יום. 'לא' הוא 'לא'</ref>

	</blockquote>		</blockquote>
	This case set the precedent that a man must verify express consent from a woman before sexual contact, otherwise it is rape.		This case set the precedent that a man must verify express consent from a woman before sexual contact, otherwise it is rape.

Larry: minor editing

2025-03-29T03:18:30Z

minor editing

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:18, March 29, 2025
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	... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.		... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.

	In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied definitely that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to demonstrate that although she said "no", ~~her "no"~~ might really ~~mean~~ "yes". The defendants were acquitted.<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>		In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied definitely that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to demonstrate that although she said "no", she might really have meant "yes". The defendants were acquitted.<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>

	Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:		Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:

Larry: Better translation of fifth verse

2025-01-26T20:51:07Z

Better translation of fifth verse

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:51, January 26, 2025
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	Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:		Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:
	<blockquote><poem>		<blockquote><poem>
	When she says "No" ~~here~~'s what she means ...		When she says "No", that's what she means! ...
	Her "No" is final, definite, because she decides, not any court. ...		Her "No" is final, definite, because she decides, not any court. ...
	She's not hinting "Yes" or "Maybe" or "Come".		She's not hinting "Yes" or "Maybe" or "Come".

Larry: Addl song line, minor rewording

2025-01-20T02:39:03Z

Addl song line, minor rewording

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:39, January 20, 2025
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	Perhaps you mean "Maybe, but not now"		Perhaps you mean "Maybe, but not now"
	Or perhaps the "No" means only "Not yet" ...		Or perhaps the "No" means only "Not yet" ...
			Maybe it means "Come here"!
	Because you say "No" so gracefully		Because you say "No" so gracefully
	That it sounds to me even more inviting than "Yes"!		That it sounds to me even more inviting than "Yes"!
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	... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.		... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.

	In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied definitely that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to ~~show~~ that although she said "no", her "no" might really mean "yes". The defendants were acquitted.<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>		In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied definitely that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to demonstrate that although she said "no", her "no" might really mean "yes". The defendants were acquitted.<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>

	Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:		Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:

Larry: typographic improvement

2025-01-20T02:29:02Z

typographic improvement

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:29, January 20, 2025
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	... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.		... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.

	In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied definitely that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to show that although she said "no", her "no" might really mean "yes". The defendants were acquitted<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>.		In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied definitely that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to show that although she said "no", her "no" might really mean "yes". The defendants were acquitted.<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>

	Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:		Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:

Larry: No video at Rokdim; minor edits

2024-09-16T03:34:51Z

No video at Rokdim; minor edits

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:34, September 16, 2024
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	The dance is unremarkable.		The dance is unremarkable.

	The ~~music~~ was written by [[Alexander (Sasha) Argov]] and is typically complex (see discussion at [[Shir HaHaflaga]].) The lyrics are by [[Dan Almagor]], who also wrote lyrics to [[Eich Hu Shar]], [[Kol HaKavod]], and others, and who is better known for his plays and for translations of plays from English to Hebrew.		The song was written in 1962, far predating the dance. The music is by [[Alexander (Sasha) Argov]] and is typically complex (see discussion at [[Shir HaHaflaga]].) The lyrics are by [[Dan Almagor]], who also wrote lyrics to [[Eich Hu Shar]], [[Kol HaKavod]], and others, and who is better known for his plays and for translations of plays from English to Hebrew.

	~~The song was written in 1962~~, ~~far predating~~ the ~~dance. The~~ speaker ~~in the lyrics~~ is a man addressing a woman who has presumably just rejected him:		In the lyrics, the speaker is a man addressing a woman who has presumably just rejected him:
	<blockquote><poem>		<blockquote><poem>
	When you say "No", what do you mean? ...		When you say "No", what do you mean? ...
	Do you really mean "No"?		Do you really mean "No"?
	Perhaps you mean "Maybe, but not now"		Perhaps you mean "Maybe, but not now"
	Or perhaps the "No" means ~~just~~ "Not yet" ...		Or perhaps the "No" means only "Not yet" ...
	Because you say "No" so gracefully		Because you say "No" so gracefully
	That it sounds to me even more inviting than "Yes"!		That it sounds to me even more inviting than "Yes"!
	</poem>		</poem>
	</blockquote>		</blockquote>
	... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli ~~outlook~~ of the time. All in good fun.		... plus three more verses in the same vein, reflecting the macho Israeli attitude of the time. All in good fun.

	In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied definitely that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to ~~"prove"~~ that although she said "no", her "no" might really mean "yes". The defendants were acquitted<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>.		In August 1988, 14-year-old Yael Greenberg of Kibbutz Shomrat was both gang-raped and one-on-one raped over a period of four days by eleven boys, ages 16 to 18, some but not all from Shomrat. Most of the boys were quickly arrested but the Haifa District Court Prosecutor's office declined to prosecute for "lack of public interest". Eventually, in 1991, the case was reopened and six of the boys were charged. At the trial, Yael was asked if she had said "no" to the rapists. She replied definitely that she had. The defense attorney then quoted the lyrics of KesheAt Omeret Lo to show that although she said "no", her "no" might really mean "yes". The defendants were acquitted<ref>There were additional reasons for the acquittal, and not all sources agree that the song was cited at this first trial.</ref>.

	Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:		Dan Almagor, aghast at this use of his song, added a fifth verse whose message contradicts the others:
Line 28:		Line 28:

	The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, which reversed the verdict and sentenced four of the boys to terms of fifteen to eighteen months. In his decision, Judge Mishael Cheshen brought up the song only to completely reject its implications:		The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, which reversed the verdict and sentenced four of the boys to terms of fifteen to eighteen months. In his decision, Judge Mishael Cheshen brought up the song only to completely reject its implications:
	<blockquote>Is it so? Is "no" a "maybe"? Is "no" really "come"? Is "no" a "yes", and "even more inviting than a 'yes'"? ... "No" is always "No". There is no "No" which is "Yes". There is no sighted blind person, no sober drunk, no stupid wise person, no yielding stubborn person. There is no black that is white and no night that is day. "No" is "No".		<blockquote>Is it so? Is "no" a "maybe"? Is "no" really "come"? Is "no" a "yes", and "even more inviting than 'yes'"? ... "No" is always "No". There is no "No" which is "Yes". There is no sighted blind person, no sober drunk, no stupid wise person, no yielding stubborn person. There is no black that is white and no night that is day. "No" is "No".
	</blockquote>		</blockquote>
	This case set the precedent that a man must verify express consent from a woman before sexual contact, otherwise it is rape.		This case set the precedent that a man must verify express consent from a woman before sexual contact, otherwise it is rape.
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	Song [https://shironet.mako.co.il/artist?type=lyrics&lang=1&prfid=7944&wrkid=17704 lyrics] and [https://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%9C%D7%90-when-you-say-no.html translation] (including fifth verse)		Song [https://shironet.mako.co.il/artist?type=lyrics&lang=1&prfid=7944&wrkid=17704 lyrics] and [https://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%9C%D7%90-when-you-say-no.html translation] (including fifth verse)

	[https://genius.com/Dean-martin-baby-its-cold-outside-lyrics Lyrics] to Frank Loesser's 1944 hit "Baby, It's Cold Outside" on the same topic, showing that this ~~attitude~~ is universal		[https://genius.com/Dean-martin-baby-its-cold-outside-lyrics Lyrics] to Frank Loesser's 1944 hit "Baby, It's Cold Outside" on the same topic, showing that this mindset is universal

	Dan Almagor [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dWCl6o3z0 interviewed] (in Hebrew) on the song and on his addition of a fifth verse. (He attributes the inspiration for the original to "Reader's Digest" magazine.)		Dan Almagor [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dWCl6o3z0 interviewed] (in Hebrew) on the song and on his addition of a fifth verse. (He attributes the inspiration for the original to "Reader's Digest" magazine.)
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	{{AussieDance \|3179}} (Sa'ada)		{{AussieDance \|3179}} (Sa'ada)

	~~{{Rokdim \|5abd23d9db5332cc3c8b45f4}} (Sa'ada)~~

	[[Category:Dances]]		[[Category:Dances]]